I’ve spent the past dozen years or so working primarily in the pharmaceutical industry. So when I hear “government-run healthcare” or “socialized medicine,” here are some of my spontaneous thoughts:
- Medicare pinches profit and incentive out of system: the end of medical and pharmaceutical research & development.
- A visit to the doctor becomes like waiting in a line like the department-of-motor-vehicles.
- Poorly trained healthcare providers, and underpaid paper-pushers… instead of passionate, educated healthcare professionals.
- Having to fly to another country to get the best medical treatment if I’m willing to pay for it myself and believe my child needs help sooner than the government decides it’s time.
Then I watch this video cartoon, and suddenly I’m thinking… yeah, if the government can handle fire, police, mail and medicare… why can’t it be a substitute for the horribly run managed care and pharmacy benefit managers? That’s the power of video persuasion.
I wouldn’t have read an article by this cartoon’s creator (Andy Lubershane) or listened to this debate on Sunday morning talk shows. And I certainly wouldn’t have paid attention to a commercial that supported this cause. But this is a cartoon, and it’s informative and funny… look- two-headed people and blood shooting out of arms! Wait a minute. You just persuaded me!
Oh no, not politics. People believe what they believe. There’s little point in trying to persuade most people of anything. This is long, but check these guys out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKBa9K_vAm8&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ehuffingtonpost%2Ecom%2F2009%2F09%2F01%2Fprotester%2Dholds%2Dup%2Dcopy%2Do%5Fn%5F274611%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded
I am especially fond of the the man at 1:17 that talks about reading the “U.S.S. Constitution” and the thoughtful query from the lady at 2:10.
I did notice a lot of good hair in that video I posted. Pretty soon you’ll fit right in, Nalty.
So… do you have an answer to your question? ” yeah, if the government can handle fire, police, mail and medicare… why can’t it be a substitute for the horribly run managed care and pharmacy benefit managers?”
Because its pretty convincing, no offense.
@4 No offense taken. There’s no doubt the video took me off of an extreme. Someone previously not comfortable with the government’s role in health care because some things are run better by the private sector and economics usually take out the fat in any market (consumer pressures, or pressure by corporate payers tired of being burdened with high costs).
Oh no, God forbid anyone ever try to make a profit! (and I’d like to see some support of the claim that Medicare only takes 2-3%.)
I don’t find this video very convincing at all. I found it naively idealistic and oversimplified. Certainly most people agree that it would be a good thing for anybody who wants health insurance to be able to obtain it at a reasonable price, but the big question is how to achieve such a situation (or if it is even possible for certain definitions of “reasonable”). This is the reason so many people were on board with healthcare reform until they saw the details of the currently proposed legislation. Bad ideas like communism sound nice when explained in broad terms (actually communism can and does work in limited settings like a family or other small, tightly-knit communities), but when it is forced on large groups of people, well, history gives us many examples of its failure.
Even ignoring the fact that government run healthcare is downright unconstitutional (see 9th and 10th amendments), it hardly seems viable to have the government competing again the private market while also being the market regulator. It seems inevitable that the federal program would put the private sector out of business, in which case we would be left with only the public option, which in turn would need big tax increases to survive.
I also disagree that the federal government handles the things it already has control of very well. Note that police, fire, water, etc. are *locally* run organizations. Most of the federally run social programs are all deeply in debt and reducing benefits (think social security). I know I certainly can’t count on social security to provide for my needs by the time I am old enough to be eligible. Is the same unlikely to happen with government run healthcare?
But the main reason I dislike the idea of universal healthcare is that it gives the federal government too much power (again power which is prohibited by that pesky old document called “The Constitution”). Even if the current administration and the next use such power admirably (I’m not too optimistic about that), down the road, we may have a more corrupt administration that cripples the economy promoting its own partisan agenda (many people I’m sure believe this is already happening). Power, once given, is very difficult to take back from the government without huge upheavals.
Yes, healthcare needs reform, but an unconstitutional federal health program is not the way to go.
Oh no, God forbid we put the needs of the people of our country ahead of the greed of corporations and their shareholders. For God’s sake, kid…
Corrupt administration that cripples the economy promoting its own agenda? Hmmm…what does this make me think of?
Unconstitutional? Please explain, Aggie.
Anyone who says that they “support the idea of healthcare reform, just not this kind of reform” is full of shit. They merely want Obama to fail. They have no real interest in changing the status quo. And the status quo is not OK. We’ve seen that supposedly bipartisan Repubs like Grassley have only been interested in defeating this legislation from the beginning.
Don’t know what it make you think of, but it reminds me of pretty much every administration I’ve seen since I’ve been alive. (Some more so than others though.)
Unconstitutional? Quite simple really. If you read what I wrote, you should have noticed that mentioned the 10th amendment which says (in case you can’t be bothered to look it up yourself), “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” If you are familiar with the constitution, you will realize that creating a national healthcare plan is not among the enumerated powers delegated to the United States. Hence doing so is simply unconstitutional.
The status quo is definitely not OK. But just because I don’t support giving more power to the government (Guess what? I’m not a fan of the Patriot Act either.) doesn’t mean I’m “full of shit” and want Obama to fail. That’s quite a non sequitur.
A friend sent me this video a few days ago. I love it.
I really don’t understand the opposition to a government OPTION, for those with no other way to obtain health care. Most people in this country who have health care, don’t understand what it is like to be without. Health care should be a basic right for EVERYONE, not just those that can afford it.
As far as pharmaceutical company profits go, no offense to your prior profession, but I think that argument doesn’t hold water. As long as there is money to be made, research will continue. There will still be plenty of rich people willing to fork over their dough for implants, Botox, and Propecia. And the chance to have the corner on the market for the newest miracle cure will keep experimentation and research alive.
Health care professionals already have to jump through hoops and fill out reams of paperwork for your average HMO, PPO, Medicare, etc. I doubt anything will change in that regard.
You don’t know what it makes me think of? Sounds like every administration since you’ve been alive? Maybe you were in a coma during the 90’s… Anyway, it certainly reminds me of a certain Republican administration that decided Iraq was to blame for 9/11.
So I guess Medicare is unconstitutional as well? You’re the only person I’ve heard making a case against health care reform because it’s unconstitutional. If it’s so “simple really” why isn’t this the issue being raised by the right? This argument is bullshit. Utter bullshit. Complete bullshit. I can’t say it enough.
Yes, you are full of shit.
As of August 2009, 37 states have introduced resolutions in support of “state sovereignty” under the 10th Amendment. In seven states the resolutions passed (Alaska, Idaho, North Dakota, South Dakota, Oklahoma, Louisiana, and Tennessee).[3]
Further, two states (Montana and Tennessee) have passed specific legislation exempting residents from certain federal firearms regulations, while Arizona has a proposed constitutional amendment (to be voted on in 2010) which would nullify a national health care system from operating in the state.[3]
Above taken from Wikipedia. These resolutions are often efforts to skirt labor and environmental regulations, of course. And it goes without saying that these are all wacko red states. Way to go, Arizona, on that effort to keep out a national health care system. Maybe they can secede from the Union along with Texas. Dumbassess…
*sigh* I knew I shouldn’t have opened the can of worms. Thank you Marilyn for commenting in a polite, level-headed way instead of stooping to the simian level of flinging dung. Those are indeed legitimate points.
meme, it certainly reminds me strongly of the Bush administration in particular, but the current one takes the cake. I suppose I was too young to be very cognizant of politics during the 90’s, so perhaps I should modify my statement with regard to earlier periods of my life.
I pretty sure the issue has been raised by the right (I can probably find links if you don’t believe me), but in reality, constitutionality hardly seems to matter to the right or the left these days. Both sides are trying to force their agenda with little regard to their constituents or the constitution. We already have social security, Medicare, welfare, etc. as precedent, so why not create more unconstitutional social programs to help put us more deeply in debt to China?
Since this is not the proper forum for political debate and meme seems incapable of saying anything without resorting to hateful invectives about people (and thinking about politics makes me angry), I will call it quits since further discussion here is likely to be fruitless.
I’m not flinging dung. I’m just identifying the stuff I see being spewed by others. You know–“Look, it’s shit!”
The Dems are thinking more of their constituents than their counterparts on the other side of the aisle. Dems are trying to do something to help people. Repubs are trying to protect big business. The welfare of private insurance seems to be your primary concern as well.
I know I run the risk of bringing out the feigned sensitive sensibilities of those I argue with by using words like “shit”. Frankly, I kind of enjoy it, because that faux prudish reaction is so predictable.
V.A. health care has saved and extended my life, but I had to wade through a sea of desensitized, bloodless, strawboss government employee jackass DMV-rejected assholes to get to it. And I get priority care because I’m a service-connected disabled veteran. Y’all are gonna hate centralized medicine. I don’t care if you believe me or not. In fact, I would be secretly pleased to see you suffer the same totally unnecessary catch-22 government bullshit I’ve suffered. It would be sweet, sweet justice for all ….well, don’t get me started down THAT path.
The federal government doesn’t run your city’s police or fire departments. It couldn’t. What makes you think it could run your local hospitals?
And as far as those other essential services that our government provides so “efficiently”….well, I’ve worked civil service as a WS-grade mechanic and I’ve worked for the post office. It’s frickin’ INSANE in there. If you want insane people sticking hoses up your butt to look at your acid reflux, you’ve come to the right decision.
I don’t recall anyone saying that the government was efficient. And everyone has to wade through a sea of desensitized, bloodless, etc., etc. their whole lives in many places. And of course you would love to see someone else suffer.
Here’s the facebook post going around among some people I know today:
No one should die because they cannot afford health care, and no one should go broke because they get sick. If you agree, post this as your status for the rest of the day.
Of course, some would say that’s “naively idealistic and oversimplified” but who gives a SHIT what those people think?
I’ll tell you what’s really naively idealistic and oversimplified:
Objectivism.
@15
Of course. Who likes to suffer alone?
sweet
Alright, you know what? You’re right, I’m not very civil. I’m sorry, and I’ll try to do better.
Let’s not get to this point:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/03/finger-bitten-off-in-figh_n_276235.html
I should have waded in on this a few days ago since a good portion of my blog is dedicated to the Health Care Cartel – click if you must, read if want – but this economy has taken its toll… so better late than never.
I’ve been fighting this Health Care issue for years because I think it’s moral and just, that at this point in human history especially, in this nation, that health care should be a right. I think it’s a shame that the media has taken it to a bloody gang fight rather than a civilized debate.
I’d like only to address a couple of points – a few Kevin has already resolved in his own conscious and a rant and rebuttal to mdj.
1. The video makes a great argument unfortunately, I think there are a number of people that wouldn’t mind if the poor suffered without a fire department so they could save a few pennies in taxes. That’s the nature and sickness of greed.
2. Kevin’s initial reaction:
a. “Medicare pinches profit and incentive out of system: the end of medical and pharmaceutical research & development.”
Not everything has to be for profit. 80% of all R&D is done at the public university and most clinical testing is at thenon-profit level funded by government grants – that’s 100% tax payer money – Big Pharma has lobbied for some pretty strange laws, they were able to buy the passing of these laws through campaign donations (quid pro quo) that gives them exclusive and copy written rights to public R&D – something the media as the 4th estates should have exposed in no small way long ago. However, the MSM has large investments in medical industries. Rule of thumb – follow the money.
b. “A visit to the doctor becomes like waiting in a line like the department-of-motor-vehicles.”
First, the DMV is online, no more waiting. That said…. it really depends on the city you live in and the size of the population. Having worked in mostly poor communities many of the patients on state health care have gotten faster and better treatment then those who have corporate HMOs. Much of this depends on the plan your employer buys into. In my conversations I have never spoken to a poor person on state aid whose been refused treatment of any sort while those, even colleagues I worked with, have been excluded because of pre-existing conditions or it’s not underwritten in the plan, from this POV you are either better off a billionaire or dirt poor. A very small portion of the populace has the Cadillac Plan. People are more afraid of losing what little thy have only because they don’t know what little they have until thy actually need little of it.
c. “Poorly trained healthcare providers, and underpaid paper-pushers… instead of passionate, educated healthcare professionals.”
Right now there are 90,000 deaths a year, yes, 90k, due to medical mistakes. This is already a crisis. Until we fully fund education this will never change and we need to start talking about this problem now and stop hoping that if we just ignore it we or a loved one won’t be the next victim. Patients shouldn’t have to rely on a Sharpie to make sure they get a vasectomy rather than a foot lobbed off caused by diabetes. Much of this is human error and lack of good hospital policy. Btw, avoid anything Kaiser Permanente.
d. “Having to fly to another country to get the best medical treatment if I’m willing to pay for it myself and believe my child needs help sooner than the government decides it’s time.”
Americans with private health care are already fleeing to Mexico and Thailand for treatment so their rate don’t sky rocket or they can get a non-cosmetic procedure done for 50% less. Most of the medical attendants in these other nations are trained in the US and as I mentioned before there are already long line for people who have Private Insurance.
As far as waiting for a treatment…
It’s rare for Canadians, Europeans and US Subsidized Israeli Care to wait for a non-pressing condition and that waiting usually happen because of scheduling for cancer or a crisis patient, but this doesn’t mean the US can’t take the data from CA, EU, IS and make it work better. This is the USA for God’s sake! We make it, do it and use it better than anyone in the world. USA! USA! USA! what happen to that?
mdj
I understand you’ve had a rough time of it and I’m sorry you wish the worse on all of us who didn’t serve. But frankly, I’m sick and tired of your bitching about the VA and the fact that the American People left you high and dry from what you saw and experienced in the battle field. I also figure you’ll expect this kind of reaction from an outsider you wish the worst on from the world view you’ve incorporated.
I’m sorry you were duped into joining the military and that you had no other choice, but to sign up as a kid. I’m sorry that after you got out you had no support from family, friends or that the government you worked for didn’t offer you counseling to readjust and that your brothers in arms who did well upon their return left you high and dry, but what I’m sorry about most of all is that instead of trying to make it or fight for a better system and work for those you stood next to you’ve given up and chosen to be bitter instead.
Maybe if we hire more guys like Erik Prince and Blackwater (XE) with no accountability then we can skip the whole romantic notion of God, Duty, Country and free education that entices our kids, especially the poor, to join up and fall into the same endless traps of resentment and bitterness, then we can become a true nation of every man and corporation for itself and revert to the good ol’ bad days of wild west justice, lynch mobs, and the raping and pillaging of those not in our tribe. Heck, let’s skip civilization altogether and incorporate the laws of the jungle once more, Lord of the Flies, a New Distopia. Even if that means no more internets and anyone over the age of 40 life expectancy drops to 30%.
I realize your videos are part of your therapy, but how about a change for a higher cause? You know the old saying, ‘you are what you think.’
Sweet!
Regretting putting up a political post yet Nalts?
@22
Ah the good old days of wanton raping and pillaging. I DO miss them so! Was that a pun when you said you were sick and tired of my constant and incessant whining and bitching? Try not to bleed too much on your nice computer room carpet. Vinegar gets it up pretty good though if you do.
@25 I don’t know why I keep forgetting that we only live once.
Thanks for the reminder.